R/Ex Variants of expensive items

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Rainemard
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Re: R/Ex Variants of expensive items

Post by Rainemard » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:45 pm

Kurma wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:18 pm
I would like R/E to be offered in the BCNM, but I understand why they aren't offered in the BCNM.

To be 100% accurate...

When SE originally put the Boots and PCC and Hairpin into the BCNMs...the prices skyrocketed.

This had more to do with it being the great IGE Christmas of 2005 though.

I remember doing the BCNM for the Charm with 2 friends and we spammed it until we all got one.

I sold mine for almost 30 million, which bought my Haubergeon + 2 Sniper Rings and a couple other nice items for my BST. Haubys were 9+ million at this time.

With this information, an argument could be made both ways.

"SE added these items so more casual people could get them and that was the intention of adding them to the BCNMs"

"Look at those prices...RMT had ruined the economy and basically when you bought gil to buy an item...you just gave the gil right back to the gilseller that you bought the gil from...thus keeping the cycle going"

This all being said, I did have a question about 1 other item that is not currently in a BCNM....Astral Rings.

I would like those to be in Wings of Fury because it really sucks that a Coffer needs to be opened with Keys that come from level 65+ monsters to get a level 10 Ring.

This inherently puts lowbies at the mercy of the higher level people. AT this current timeline of Eden, that is essentially "Pure Eden" players vs "Kupo" players.

This has bred some resentment among the two player bases/archetypes.

This occurred on retail during this time as well, but it was then NA/EU vs JP at that time. So an argument could be made that conflict between players with 2 years of playtime vs players with 2 months of playtime is actually "Very Era"

For this particular item (Astral Rings), one of the main reasons it was added to the BCNM was that people camped the Coffers and it made it almost impossible on some servers to get your AF done if it required a Castle O coffer.

There would literally be an RMT invisible at every coffer spawn point camping the Coffers.

Now, I am not high enough level to really go that far into Castle O to check, and I doubt that is occurring here.

But the is just my 2 cents about Astral Rings.

BTW, this happened for Mages Ballad II and needing Castle Z for AF as well.

EDIT:

My point about Mages Ballad 2 and Astral Rings...it'd be nice for money drops not to make getting Artifact Coffers as hard...

But that was distinctly era (AF being a PITA to get) at that time.
I think you bring up a lot of valid points here as well, especially the Kupo vs Pure Eden part. I have felt the resentment between the two and I wish those two playerbases would get closer together. The coffer part I won't get into on this thread, as I don't want to derail it too much. I understand what you mean though, but I wonder how much of a problem it is af of right now. I'll notice when I get a job that has one of the worse AF coffer zones though.

Rainemard
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:08 am

Re: R/Ex Variants of expensive items

Post by Rainemard » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:46 pm

Kurma wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:31 pm
BTW it really is a shame that "Killing Ifrit" has been taken down., because discussions like these happened there a lot.

And for the record, I have camped my Emperor Hairpin and got it (1/4), because it is such a nice item and I use it on a lot of jobs (THF, NIN, PUP MNK).
On 3 of my claims, I was the only person camping the VE.

I have not camped the Leaping Boots, but when I go through her camp, usually there are 2-4 people camping, but sometimes zero.

While I was getting Galka RSE in The Maze of Shakarami, there were about 3 people camping Argus. I am unsure of window etc, but that didn't seem excessive to me.

I am willing to farm or camp for stuff that I want.

When I got my Empress Hairpin and my Bounding Boots on retail, I was soooo excited because they WERE hard to get.

When I got my Peacock Amulet on retail, I was excited...and I then literally logged off from the game and quit for 4 years. My time was coming to an end and I just stayed logged in at Argus. When I finally decided to just /shutdown...Argus was standing in front of me.
That's like SE standing in an alleyway offering you one last hit of crack lmao

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gweivyth
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Re: R/Ex Variants of expensive items

Post by gweivyth » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:49 pm

Astrals aren't worth that much, so I don't think people are going gaga to pop coffers there if they don't have to. I imagine this is more of a case of "Oh hey I'm already in the area doing something else, and I have Thief's Tools and happened to find this chest." I can't see there being any hardcore campers, the demand for Astrals really isn't that big so I can't imagine they'd sell that fast.

I just did Castle Oztrjoa coffer last night for THF pants, (I know...I know...I'm a few levels late on that :lol: ) it was uncontested. There were two other people in the zone when I went last night, they were camping Kote and Fumas. If you don't have a 75 THF this is a pain in the butt to farm for, and if you have a 75 THF you can make gil easier farming vendorables at 75.
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Kurma
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Re: R/Ex Variants of expensive items

Post by Kurma » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:30 pm

gweivyth wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:24 pm
Kurma wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:18 pm
This inherently puts lowbies at the mercy of the higher level people. AT this current timeline of Eden, that is essentially "Pure Eden" players vs "Kupo" players.
Well yeah, every time a low level player buys something in this game using anything except a vendor, they are at the mercy of higher level people. That's sort of how this game goes, right? How are you reasonably getting bone gear at level 12 as soon as you can wear it? You can't buy it from a vendor. Chances are you're buying it from the auction house, where either a crafter who is higher level crafted it, (because leveling crafts as you level is very difficult or in some cases not possible without a group of other similarly leveled players) or someone higher level than you has outgrown it and moved on to beetle gear.

There's definitely supposed to be a food chain, the very basics of the game revolve around it. This isn't like FFXIV where you don't really need to buy gear from the auction house until much later because the game grants you things as you level up in a linear fashion. It's a very different system that is predicated on the idea that someone came before you and now has wares to offer you on the grind that make it easier, because the game certainly isn't going to hand you anything. The game promotes a sense of community by making us rely on each other throughout all of the adventure.
100% agree !

I have played on private servers where there was not an established population.

You have to make everything and nothing ever actually sells.

You end up using Conquest Armor/Weapons only because there is barely anything else. You might go camp special NM gear, but you will struggle to update much of anything else.

I don't have a problem with people who were here basically playtesting the game/server that I am currently playing and them benefiting from it...because I am currently benefiting from it.

I have actually had very good interactions with established players helping me out. Restarted has helped me out a few times and Stubbs helped me kill a NM that was out of my league and let me have the drop (Tortoise Shield!).

This game having a variance in player play time is important to it having a natural economy (just like real life).

An example of this for me is my conundrum with PUP Automaton Attachments.

I assume they will be Era-correct NPC prices. This means I need almost 250k gil.

I have a couple options to farm that gil. Most likely I will just camp the VE and hope for a second hairpin and I will sell it and that will cover most of my PUP Costs for a long time. Heck I can sell my current Hairpin and just hope for the best getting one later.

If that doesn't work, I will beetle jaws, tiger fangs to Taumila and various crystals that I get from XPing/Farming.

Without other players, only the Tiger Fangs sales can happen.

I think the devs point of avoiding making big changes to avoid drastic changes in the economy i understandable.

There will always be "bottleneck" items in MMOs where rare or useful things hold value.

Example: they decide next week to put Hairpins into a BCNM. That would probably remove my ability to fund PUP with one lucky drop.

Economies are generally unfair and have uneven distribution models. This is true in many different things. This doesn't make them wrong or bad.

What drives many people is the desire to pursue happiness. This can mean different things for different people in life and in big video games such as Eden FFXI.

Some people really value time off. Some people really value "things".

Anyway sorry for the long rambling post. I just wanted to say that I made my case, but I even understand why things are they way that they currently are in Eden.

Rainemard
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:08 am

Re: R/Ex Variants of expensive items

Post by Rainemard » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:02 pm

Kurma wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:30 pm
gweivyth wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:24 pm
Kurma wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:18 pm
This inherently puts lowbies at the mercy of the higher level people. AT this current timeline of Eden, that is essentially "Pure Eden" players vs "Kupo" players.
Well yeah, every time a low level player buys something in this game using anything except a vendor, they are at the mercy of higher level people. That's sort of how this game goes, right? How are you reasonably getting bone gear at level 12 as soon as you can wear it? You can't buy it from a vendor. Chances are you're buying it from the auction house, where either a crafter who is higher level crafted it, (because leveling crafts as you level is very difficult or in some cases not possible without a group of other similarly leveled players) or someone higher level than you has outgrown it and moved on to beetle gear.

There's definitely supposed to be a food chain, the very basics of the game revolve around it. This isn't like FFXIV where you don't really need to buy gear from the auction house until much later because the game grants you things as you level up in a linear fashion. It's a very different system that is predicated on the idea that someone came before you and now has wares to offer you on the grind that make it easier, because the game certainly isn't going to hand you anything. The game promotes a sense of community by making us rely on each other throughout all of the adventure.
100% agree !

I have played on private servers where there was not an established population.

You have to make everything and nothing ever actually sells.

You end up using Conquest Armor/Weapons only because there is barely anything else. You might go camp special NM gear, but you will struggle to update much of anything else.

I don't have a problem with people who were here basically playtesting the game/server that I am currently playing and them benefiting from it...because I am currently benefiting from it.

I have actually had very good interactions with established players helping me out. Restarted has helped me out a few times and Stubbs helped me kill a NM that was out of my league and let me have the drop (Tortoise Shield!).

This game having a variance in player play time is important to it having a natural economy (just like real life).

An example of this for me is my conundrum with PUP Automaton Attachments.

I assume they will be Era-correct NPC prices. This means I need almost 250k gil.

I have a couple options to farm that gil. Most likely I will just camp the VE and hope for a second hairpin and I will sell it and that will cover most of my PUP Costs for a long time. Heck I can sell my current Hairpin and just hope for the best getting one later.

If that doesn't work, I will beetle jaws, tiger fangs to Taumila and various crystals that I get from XPing/Farming.

Without other players, only the Tiger Fangs sales can happen.

I think the devs point of avoiding making big changes to avoid drastic changes in the economy i understandable.

There will always be "bottleneck" items in MMOs where rare or useful things hold value.

Example: they decide next week to put Hairpins into a BCNM. That would probably remove my ability to fund PUP with one lucky drop.

Economies are generally unfair and have uneven distribution models. This is true in many different things. This doesn't make them wrong or bad.

What drives many people is the desire to pursue happiness. This can mean different things for different people in life and in big video games such as Eden FFXI.

Some people really value time off. Some people really value "things".

Anyway sorry for the long rambling post. I just wanted to say that I made my case, but I even understand why things are they way that they currently are in Eden.
Not a rambling post at all! I think you raise a lot of valid points regarding the economy and I am inclined to agree with you at this moment in time. I've found more than valid counterarguments in this thread as to why the change shouldn't happen or should be postponed. I think you did a very good job in explaining the other side of this change, how it could negatively impact people currently farming them, and I do agree on them (as it was in my original list of cons). I'm glad you joined for a healthy discussion, it seems to me the divide is about 50/50 on whether the change should happen or not. I'm glad godmode is going his own way and doesn't let threads like this affect him too much, it will be most fair like that in the end.

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gweivyth
Posts: 352
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Re: R/Ex Variants of expensive items

Post by gweivyth » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:29 pm

Kurma wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:30 pm
gweivyth wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:24 pm
Kurma wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:18 pm
This inherently puts lowbies at the mercy of the higher level people. AT this current timeline of Eden, that is essentially "Pure Eden" players vs "Kupo" players.
Well yeah, every time a low level player buys something in this game using anything except a vendor, they are at the mercy of higher level people. That's sort of how this game goes, right? How are you reasonably getting bone gear at level 12 as soon as you can wear it? You can't buy it from a vendor. Chances are you're buying it from the auction house, where either a crafter who is higher level crafted it, (because leveling crafts as you level is very difficult or in some cases not possible without a group of other similarly leveled players) or someone higher level than you has outgrown it and moved on to beetle gear.

There's definitely supposed to be a food chain, the very basics of the game revolve around it. This isn't like FFXIV where you don't really need to buy gear from the auction house until much later because the game grants you things as you level up in a linear fashion. It's a very different system that is predicated on the idea that someone came before you and now has wares to offer you on the grind that make it easier, because the game certainly isn't going to hand you anything. The game promotes a sense of community by making us rely on each other throughout all of the adventure.
100% agree !

I have played on private servers where there was not an established population.

You have to make everything and nothing ever actually sells.

You end up using Conquest Armor/Weapons only because there is barely anything else. You might go camp special NM gear, but you will struggle to update much of anything else.
This pretty accurately sums up my year-ish spent on Kupo, and I think that has a lot to do with my attitude on the subject. I remember times where crafting was not only not profitable, but it was usually at a STEEP detriment to the crafter, it was very bad. Not enough players buying crafted gear, and in turn even less people bothering to level crafts. Most of us who were doing it on Kupo only did it because we wanted stuff for ourselves and we knew nobody else was around to make it for us.

People always talk about the "2x crafting rate!!!!11" from Kupo, but even THAT didn't incentivise people to craft. Even if we had the advertised 2x, it just wasn't worth the time or gil invested since you would never see a return. People seem to forget that Kupo had half the amount of players at its all-time peak than Eden has online during it's "off hours" every day. It just wasn't enough people to stimulate any real economy, and most of those players were farming NPCables over crafting materials anyway, so crafters were stuck farming all of their own mats since nobody had them for sale.

My first 75 was Warrior and I got there wearing an underleveled Great Axe, R.K body (not even scorpion harness...) and Legionnaire's Mitts and Republic Subligar...and it was acceptable because everyone's gear sucked that much. We had to get 6k an hour because there wasn't anybody crafting or growing out of gear to sell to us "lowbies." You saw a lot of white mages without Erase and back then we didn't even have elemental staves at all, so all mages were basically resting in Pilgrim's Wand at 75...it was a dark time.

Nowadays I can make a million gil almost overnight due to all of the time and effort I put into those crafts. Why is that? Well, people actually BUY THINGS now. I can make a boatload of things that sell cheaply to lowbie players and turn a profit on NQs, and generally more than double my investment on HQs depending on the item. This helps new players by allowing them to have gear on the auction house to level with, and it helps me by making me gil. If I wasn't incentivised to do that by profits, you'd be back to a place where nobody is bothering to make gear for up-comers because I would just spend that time and effort on something else that IS profitable.

Camping NMs is like this too. The reason that I don't do it is because the return on my investment for me just isn't worth it, (I can make a mil overnight so why would I spend weeks camping Argus when I can just buy a charm?) but for those people that are willing to camp, that charm should be worth MUCH more. That camp is hard. Putting those drops in a BCNM not only floods the market, but it makes Argus completely obsolete and that's not what people would want, especially those who have already spent that time. And like I've said a few times in this thread already, Peacock Charm is such an absurd item that the fact that you can get it for so little gil at this point in time is crazy. NOW is the time to buy that thing because if you think it's prohibitively expensive now, wait a few months when they get more scarce and the supply stops meeting the demand.

That's just how the game is. You definitely want people around before you, it makes your life exponentially less awful. :lol:
Gweivyth.// Gilgamesh
  • WAR 75
  • MNK 75
  • THF 75
  • PLD 75
  • Leathercraft 60
  • Bonecraft 93+2
New and need some friends? Join Skyward!

Kurma
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:03 pm

Re: R/Ex Variants of expensive items

Post by Kurma » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:00 pm

Rainemard wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:02 pm
Kurma wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:30 pm
gweivyth wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:24 pm


Well yeah, every time a low level player buys something in this game using anything except a vendor, they are at the mercy of higher level people. That's sort of how this game goes, right? How are you reasonably getting bone gear at level 12 as soon as you can wear it? You can't buy it from a vendor. Chances are you're buying it from the auction house, where either a crafter who is higher level crafted it, (because leveling crafts as you level is very difficult or in some cases not possible without a group of other similarly leveled players) or someone higher level than you has outgrown it and moved on to beetle gear.

There's definitely supposed to be a food chain, the very basics of the game revolve around it. This isn't like FFXIV where you don't really need to buy gear from the auction house until much later because the game grants you things as you level up in a linear fashion. It's a very different system that is predicated on the idea that someone came before you and now has wares to offer you on the grind that make it easier, because the game certainly isn't going to hand you anything. The game promotes a sense of community by making us rely on each other throughout all of the adventure.
100% agree !

I have played on private servers where there was not an established population.

You have to make everything and nothing ever actually sells.

You end up using Conquest Armor/Weapons only because there is barely anything else. You might go camp special NM gear, but you will struggle to update much of anything else.

I don't have a problem with people who were here basically playtesting the game/server that I am currently playing and them benefiting from it...because I am currently benefiting from it.

I have actually had very good interactions with established players helping me out. Restarted has helped me out a few times and Stubbs helped me kill a NM that was out of my league and let me have the drop (Tortoise Shield!).

This game having a variance in player play time is important to it having a natural economy (just like real life).

An example of this for me is my conundrum with PUP Automaton Attachments.

I assume they will be Era-correct NPC prices. This means I need almost 250k gil.

I have a couple options to farm that gil. Most likely I will just camp the VE and hope for a second hairpin and I will sell it and that will cover most of my PUP Costs for a long time. Heck I can sell my current Hairpin and just hope for the best getting one later.

If that doesn't work, I will beetle jaws, tiger fangs to Taumila and various crystals that I get from XPing/Farming.

Without other players, only the Tiger Fangs sales can happen.

I think the devs point of avoiding making big changes to avoid drastic changes in the economy i understandable.

There will always be "bottleneck" items in MMOs where rare or useful things hold value.

Example: they decide next week to put Hairpins into a BCNM. That would probably remove my ability to fund PUP with one lucky drop.

Economies are generally unfair and have uneven distribution models. This is true in many different things. This doesn't make them wrong or bad.

What drives many people is the desire to pursue happiness. This can mean different things for different people in life and in big video games such as Eden FFXI.

Some people really value time off. Some people really value "things".

Anyway sorry for the long rambling post. I just wanted to say that I made my case, but I even understand why things are they way that they currently are in Eden.
Not a rambling post at all! I think you raise a lot of valid points regarding the economy and I am inclined to agree with you at this moment in time. I've found more than valid counterarguments in this thread as to why the change shouldn't happen or should be postponed. I think you did a very good job in explaining the other side of this change, how it could negatively impact people currently farming them, and I do agree on them (as it was in my original list of cons). I'm glad you joined for a healthy discussion, it seems to me the divide is about 50/50 on whether the change should happen or not. I'm glad godmode is going his own way and doesn't let threads like this affect him too much, it will be most fair like that in the end.
Thanks man, I appreciate the kind words. And I agree that I like the back and forth and people then understand where everyone is coming from.

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