Suggestion to buff BST Jug Pets.

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serephim
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Suggestion to buff BST Jug Pets.

Post by serephim » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:04 pm

I just got done leveling BST to 75 awhile ago and I did it the whole way in parties and I will just say it was pretty underwhelming. lol
I know this would be a custom buff. But I think BST's jug pets need a slight buff to make them more viable and give BST a place in EXP parties. Namely to their accuracy. Even using the best HQ pets level capped they still missed attacks and ready attacks the vast majority of the time.
This buff wouldn't effect their soloing or make them OP because charmed pets are still far stronger, it would just make them perform a little better in parties.
What do you think? :?:

MihkiMilli
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Re: Suggestion to buff BST Jug Pets.

Post by MihkiMilli » Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:41 am

I'd like to second this. Jugs need a *major* boost in accuracy to be useful at both level cap events and in late game exp/merit parties.
Here's a little math to support this:
  • A typical level cap jug pet has an accuracy of around 276 ~ 282.
  • Lets take a Greater Colibri, a level 81 ~ 82 mob that people commonly exp on, with an evasion of 334 ~ 339.
According to the numbers I see on the wiki, in this specific case the hit chance formula could be written as:
75 - ((MobEva + (LevelDiff x 4) - PlayerAccuracy) x 0.5)

Best case scenario, 75 jug vs 81 Greater Colibri:
75 - ((334 + (6 x 4) - 282) x 0.5) = 37% accuracy

Worst case scenario, 73 jug vs 82 Greater Colibri:
75 - ((339 + (9 x 4) - 276) x 0.5) = 25.5% accuracy

This is against an exp mob, and it looks roughly like what I've seen in game. Just forget gods and all that endgame stuff - pretty sure jug pet accuracy simply bottoms out at 20%. Also, I don't believe pet TP moves get any bonus to accuracy, they seem to miss at the same rate as regular attacks.

There are a few niche positives to the job, that's true, but it's nowhere close to a good trade off. Buffing jugs accuracy also doesn't buff the job in the few niche areas where it's already a reasonably good job. I know custom changes are a slippery slope, but I urge the dev team to consider it in this case because Beasmaster is a job that offers very little and SE just left it on the back burner for years.

I love this job and I really want a reason to play it!

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pan
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Re: Suggestion to buff BST Jug Pets.

Post by pan » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:34 am

As comparison I add the stats of SMN avatars at 75
( no AF-gear boosts, no merits)

Acc/Atk
Carby: 291/554
Fenrir: 295/554
Rest: 297/550
Diabolos: I wish I could check ;D

MihkiMilli
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Re: Suggestion to buff BST Jug Pets.

Post by MihkiMilli » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:31 am

Also worth adding that there are numerous ways to buff avatar accuracy and very little in the way of the same thing for jug pets.
Additionally, Summoner front loads all its damage with accuracy boosted blood pacts. Jug pets are far more reliant on auto attack accuracy for damage, and their weak TP attacks don't seem to come with any accuracy boost.

I don't think it would be imbalanced for jugs to have accuracy somewhere in the same ballpark as a player. They're just not very useful if they're not hitting semi reliably.

Godmode
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Re: Suggestion to buff BST Jug Pets.

Post by Godmode » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:52 pm

Is it a custom buff though or is it how retail works? We are used to playing on private servers so our memories don’t always remember retail like it was. As far as making it a party friendly job. I think the point of it was to be more solo focused but I may be wrong and this buff may make it so that you could solo exp faster than you could in a party.

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pan
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Re: Suggestion to buff BST Jug Pets.

Post by pan » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:59 pm

SMN can get +15acc/+10atk with merits, plus +20acc (+28?, 2x10/14) with AF1 legs & AF2 gloves, +5? Atk with AF2 feet. All era/retail accurate afaik

Currently AF1 legs give +10 acc, can't test AF2 gloves, since I don't have them. (Wiki says it should give +14acc currently, no info on era values)

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gweivyth
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Re: Suggestion to buff BST Jug Pets.

Post by gweivyth » Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:07 pm

Godmode wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:52 pm
Is it a custom buff though or is it how retail works? We are used to playing on private servers so our memories don’t always remember retail like it was. As far as making it a party friendly job. I think the point of it was to be more solo focused but I may be wrong and this buff may make it so that you could solo exp faster than you could in a party.
Jug pets don't have a lot of HP except for the ones that are explicitly tank mobs (Carrie and Galahad) and if you're soloing with a pet you want the pet to be tanking, so I don't see this being something to worry about. Especially when you consider that BST usually solos on mobs that are Tough, where jug pets already don't have damage and accuracy problems, the only real issue is just survivability. Since we don't have the buffed Reward timers, I can't see this being an issue. (Although if we had 1:30 Reward timers it definitely would be something to consider.) The problem becomes when you join a party and are trying to kill incredibly tough mobs, jug pets basically turn into Stevie Wonder.

It's also pretty egregious that there are so few options for which pets can even be used at 75 because of jug pets having level caps. I've been suggesting maybe just removing the level caps from the HQ versions of jug pets and letting BSTs play around with different mob types to add some utility without having to adjust their actual stats very much. It opens up a bunch of useful TP moves (Infrasonics, Claw Cyclone, Dust Cloud, etc.) and just makes BST feel like...well, a master of beasts, not just CourierCarrie and her sidekick.

Yeah jug pet accuracy sucks, but the actual damage per hit isn't so bad, so if you made those two changes I think you would see more people playing BST in parties and it might even be useful at endgame if you made some custom tweaks to things like Monster Gloves, maybe having their effect offer increased accuracy instead of the extra guaranteed levels that they do now.

As BST stands right now it is just worse than PUP in literally every way, so why would you ever level this job? If the goal on Eden was to keep jobs from being unplayable (which I think we've set the precedent for when PUP was buffed) there are some things that definitely need attention on BST because the way it is now, it's literally just a farming job that doesn't have Treasure Hunter. :\
Gweivyth.//
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mattyg
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Re: Suggestion to buff BST Jug Pets.

Post by mattyg » Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:35 pm

Does a well geared BST have any parse data on xp parties in multiple level ranges. The combination of damage of the BST and the jug do should definitely not exceed other similarly geared DD jobs.

How much damage does a jug do compared to the BST?

How often can a jug use one of its abilities? Would increasing accuracy on just abilities be enough, or would this still be too much?

I am all for balancing jobs to a certain degree, however we all know that BST was well known for its solo capabilities. It can’t be better at DD than the other DD jobs.

MihkiMilli
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Re: Suggestion to buff BST Jug Pets.

Post by MihkiMilli » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:14 pm

I don't see why it shouldn't be comparable to other DD. It's a DD role when in a party/alliance. If it can't deal damage somewhere near as well as other DD, there's no point in having it there. It's not a remotely useful job for anything else.

Other jobs like Summoner, Red Mage, Dragoon, Puppetmaster and even Thief all have comparable ability to solo. They're just good at it in different ways. Beastmaster's ability to solo is heavily dependent on which mobs are available to charm. I solo on Summoner way more than I do on Beastmaster, and Summoner is good at end game. Soloing also isn't that relevant of a skill set when everybody can dual box, and solo exp is very poor compared to a typical party. Lastly on this note, I don't see why Beastmaster being one of the several jobs "good" at soloing means it has to be totally gimped as a DD, especially when the mechanics it uses to solo wouldn't be impacted in the slightest by an accuracy change to jugs.

I don't have parses because there's none that record pet DPS on Ashita, but when jugs do hit their damage is OK, slightly less damage per hit than a Dragoon's Wyvern in my experience. When TP attacks hit they usually land somewhere in the ballpark of 130~200 on mobs higher level than themselves.

Also I strongly agree with everything Gweivyth said (+ I think buffing Reward would be a terrible idea), and this would definitely be a custom change to be clear, jug pets were not good on retail either. I only ask you to consider this because this job in absolute honesty is just not good. I've had it at 75 for ages and I only ever break it out to farm against Too Weak mobs now. Please consider giving it some love.
Last edited by MihkiMilli on Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:05 am, edited 3 times in total.

false132
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Re: Suggestion to buff BST Jug Pets.

Post by false132 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:25 am

How about changing some of our pets from blunt to slashing or piercing? Or maybe give them a dmg boost based on the wheel? Not sure how complicated that would be though. But that might start making people use more that the crab.

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